Jazz U, Pt. 2
There’s another side to yesterday’s conversation about the value of an elite jazz education beyond issues of cost to the student or quality of instruction. Comments to my post by Bill Kirchner and Savagemusic remind us that many top-drawer musicians are able to make a living thanks to jazz programs like Oberlin’s (where Savagemusic matriculates) and the New School’s (where Bill teaches). The rise of university-level jazz programs has been a godsend to many veteran jazz musicians, as economic opportunities become fewer with each passing year. The persistence of poverty among elderly jazz musicians is a problem. Teaching jazz in university has certainly provided a lifeline for more than one great artist who might otherwise be destitute.
However, any good done by putting these guys to work doesn’t ameliorate the fact that by charging kids so much, big-time jazz schools are committing legal larceny. A bachelors degree in jazz is hardly worth the paper it’s printed on. Pay-for-play opportunities are exceedingly rare, and in any case don’t require a diploma. You can talk all you want about the many benefits afforded a student at The New School or NEC or Manhattan or Julliard — and they are no doubt real — but when the student loan bill comes due, how will these kids pay? With the money they make driving cabs? Those $30K high school band directing gigs?
Maybe one percent of jazz grads will make a living playing jazz (and of those, only the Brad Mehldaus can hope to make the kind of bread needed to pay off a sizable debt … the Brad Mehldaus tend not to stay in school very long … and in any case — as Savagemusic points out — their way is usually paid). What of the rest?
(Advising them to take up bass — while perhaps wise — would only partially solve the problem.)
In a world where great jazz musicians regularly play for the door in abject dumps, surely we can agree that saddling a 23 year-old kid with $70,000 in debt is a hideous idea, even if it allows a relatively few teachers and administrators to make a decent living.
That’s not to say the educators are getting rich, because they’re not. Bureaucracy is a sponge that soaks both teacher and pupil. It would be nice if someone could figure out a way to get the old cats and young cats together in a way that bypasses that extra layer.
Ideas, anyone?
Chris:
Thanks for your kind comments about me. This is obviously an issue you feel strongly about, and for good reason. As Eddie Condon put it, “You can’t eat a plaque.”
I suggest, though, that you’re putting the worst possible face on this situation. The best jazz schools provide a mentoring system that has replaced that of decades past: bandleaders such as Miles Davis, Art Blakey, Horace Silver, Woody Herman, Buddy Rich, and many others who gave vital training to innumerable young musicians. Now that road bands and working groups are all but extinct, those world-class musicians who teach in jazz schools are filling in that huge gap. (As best they can, at any rate. Nothing can substitute for the experience of playing with a Miles Davis.)
I suggest that you talk to some of the musicians who have graduated from major jazz schools and ask them if they think that their educations were worth the financial cost. Though I’m sure that they’ll have gripes, I suspect that many, if not most, will tell you that they view the experience positively – both for what they learned in the classrooms, and for the invaluable professional connections they’ve made with faculty and peers.
Comment by Bill Kirchner — February 23, 2010 @ 5:46 pmIn 1990 I went to Berklee on a 1 semester scholarship for playing Round midnight as close to Miles as I could before I had any identity,.ran out of money and never went back.All I worked on was sight reading,.BUT..
One day I subbed for trumpet player Gilbert Castellanos in the Art Blakey ensemble and the teacher went OFF on me.He gave me Miles original Milestones,.the one he did on savoy with Bird on tenor.He gave it to me in Eb,.and I was playing trumpet.
“What the f*** you mean you cant sight transpose this shit?! Your from New York? You MUST be full of it!”
“You sound like Wynton Marsalis,.like shit.”
(I’m not picking a fight over W,.that’s what the teacher said to me.I’ve heard of similar incidents at the New School,.)
I went to William Paterson for 2 weeks,a school with a much cheaper but just as legit program then,and they kicked me out because I was broke,.but during those 2 weeks I played with Bassist Rufus Reid.
On a simple blues I decided to go all out freaky chromatic on the turnaround,.not really comfortable with it,.and Mr.Ried stopped the band..
“Mr.Lavelle,.please explain to us WHY you chose to play that?”
I have never,.been the same.
Comment by Matt Lavelle — February 23, 2010 @ 5:55 pmIn the learn by doing world,.I’ve had to reach out and form friendship/playing-relationships with veterans.Just like all human relationships this can get complicated when there is no official I’m the student,your the teacher,and vice versa understanding.I have always wanted and needed to do this,and have always approached vets with respect,.which has given me musical dividends far and above anything I believe I can learn in school.
As I turn 40,.I just don’t see young,college age,musicians reaching out to the veterans this way.Veterans will encourage and work with you,call you,if they hear something,.but many young players don’t have anything to say to get anyone’s attention.The Real education in or out of the schools is in the act of making music with someone who has reached the level where they are in fact the real deal.Playing with Joe Morris will teach any musician something that is just not in any book.
If you decide to pay to place yourself in that environment,.that’s your,.and maybe your parents choice.
Comment by Matt Lavelle — February 23, 2010 @ 6:00 pmChoose.Wisely.(and spell better than me.)
When I was in high-school I played in a big band with much (much) older guys. They were desperate for a bass player so they put up with me but I learned tons (including transposing on the fly) even though they weren’t what you would call great musicians. Invaluable. That band doesn’t exist anymore and now young people in Glengarry, Ontario who are interested in jazz are missing a formative experience. I’m assuming it’s pretty much the same everywhere but what about all these older musicians, probably retired from their day gigs, maybe still playing a little horn getting together and schooling the young folks. It’s just for kicks for them but, man, was it great for me. Where are they hiding? Come on retired, amateur jazz musicians! Help us!
The drummer in that big band, Andy Devine, who’s going on 80 now was always full of great stories and has a collection of pictures that’s just unbelievable. He’s almost the Canadian Herman Leonard. My favourite Andy story: Two hot-shot Montreal cats decide to make it in New York. They get off the train, horns in hand and hail a cab. “Where to?” asks the cabbie. One of the hot-shots glances at his taxi license. “Vernel Fournier,” hisses from his mouth like air escaping from a balloon. They didn’t stay long. Another story involves Bob Mover drinking too much at Andy’s house and running his into a telephone pole. I won’t go into that one.
Comment by Matt LeGroulx — February 23, 2010 @ 6:42 pmMatt Lavelle, man, the stories you DO tell. Keep ‘em coming, hoss …
Matt LeGroulx, I dig. Most of what I know about jazz I learned at the feet of my dad, who was a terrific sax player, and his musician friends in Oklahoma City. I learned then that there’s no substitute for learning on the job, and that you can find great players in every city you visit.
Bill, you make some very good points. I freely admit, when I was ready to go to college, I woulda given my right baby-maker to have gone to a place like The New School (which didn’t exist) or Berklee (which did). I mean, what 18 year-old aspiring jazz musician wouldn’t want to hang-out with and be taught by all those heavies? I didn’t for a variety of reasons (none philosophical, I might add; too dumb). Later, after attending a state university with a modest jazz program, I realized I wasn’t cut out for the formal jazz ed thing. My losses were therefore not very steep. (I am still not convinced that learning jazz in the classroom is the way to go – an attitude that hardened after an abbreviated stint as a jazz grad student under Ron Carter at CCNY in the ‘90s. But that’s neither here nor there …)
If things were the same today as they were 20 years ago, I might be more in agreement with you. Miles was alive, Blakey was alive, Sweet Basil, Carlos I, The Vanguard, and Fat Tuesday were alive. In short, jazz’s future looked a lot brighter.
But things have changed. The jazz business (such as it was) imploded. The only way a kid can expect to make it as a jazz musician these days is if he does a lot of other things, as well. By other things, I mean “day gig,” and by “day gig,” I mean something other than music. Not just something other than jazz. Something other than music, because music is so devalued in the world, making a living playing any style, instrument, or what have you is becoming next to impossible.
Most of us are given only one shot at a formal secondary education. As Matt Lavelle says, these kids need to know that – I mean really KNOW that, not as an abstract concept – and make their decisions wisely. I’ve made it clear that I feel jazz schools are implicitly promising something they can’t deliver. You and others disagree, and that’s cool. But I don’t think anyone thinks that starting out your working life with a huge debt hanging over your head is a good thing, especially when you’ve already shot your load, education-wise.
Thx, guys.
Comment by Chris — February 23, 2010 @ 8:36 pmAll that being said,.if I could go back in time,.and I had the money,.then a year at William Patterson,.or 2,..or straight going to NEC,.but maybe doing a music Ed thing along with performing is what I would have done.I would love to have been able to study with Joe Morris,George Garzone,and Joe Maneri.Joe has found students now that trump the new school,berklee,and nyu guys…shit,.I really want to sit down with Wayne Shorter and go through ESP and INFANT EYES,.note by note.
Comment by Matt Lavelle — February 24, 2010 @ 1:47 amMusic ed,.I know 3 guys my age,.that are GREAT players,.and teach in juinor or high school,..that $30,000 a year could come in MIGHTY handy.They play in NYC all the time,.and are exhausted every time I see them,.but their music is Alive..
Matt, there’s a reason those cats are so tired. Teaching music in a public school is hard. I got my Bachelors of Music Ed, but have never taught in the classroom. Student teaching was such a nightmare, it scared me away.
Sure, we’d all love to have access the the best education. That’s not my point, but I’m sure by now you and everyone else reading this knows that …
Comment by Chris — February 24, 2010 @ 8:11 amI helped William Hooker teach for just one class in Brooklyn once,.and the kids yelled and screamed the whole time,.it was ROUGH.The energy to be in that particular environment could easily drain your music.Working any day gig messes me up somewhat,.I always play a little weaker if I’ve worked all day,.just don’t feel 100%»
Comment by Matt Lavelle — February 24, 2010 @ 9:53 amVery interesting and important discussion! One alternative that is now available is going to school in Europe. They are many great schools in wonderful cities and school tuition is essentially free. I happily teach at Jazz Institute Berlin (with Greg Cohen, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Judy Niemack, David Friedman)-the level is very high and the students are not burdened with a huge debt when they leave.
Comment by John Hollenbeck — March 1, 2010 @ 8:57 amFree is good! Now that’s what I’m talkin’ about …
Comment by Chris — March 1, 2010 @ 9:56 am